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Author Topic: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2  (Read 2786 times)

Grim Dreamer

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Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« on: November 24, 2019, 04:50:22 PM »
WIM Blog Post 4: Critique Round 2

Part 1: CPs vs Beta Readers

Last week was the hardest week of WIM for me. General critiques from multiple CPs at the same time are not part of my usual writing process at this point in manuscript development (2nd draft). Typically, I will have a trusted CP go over a second draft before it goes out for a general critique round, a.k.a. Beta reading, and then it's time for CPs again.

I think most writers have a preference about how many CPs they want handling their MS. It's always like "cooks in the kitchen" for me, and I'm a little picky about how many cooks and which cooks I want in my kitchen. I prefer to work with a limited number of CPs. Now when it comes to Beta readers, the more the merrier. Beta readers are taste-testers! Love having lots of them! But when it comes to CPs, I am selective.

So, what is the difference? How is Beta feedback different from CP feedback, and why do you need both? How do you choose a CP vs. a Beta reader? How do you know when a CP is a good fit or if a CP relationship isn't working for you? Where do you find these rare persons?

This is my own personal opinion, but for me, a CP is an individual with valuable writing skills and insight whom I trust to work with me on achieving my vision for the story. I solicit their feedback, but I also feel free to challenge it, to ask for clarification, to argue points, concede points, and belabor them until I own those changes. They are partners in my manuscript kitchen, people I trust with a knife and a mixer, and although it's not in the job description, I am lucky enough to have CP's who have listened to me bawl out my emotions in the glorious agony that is writing.

In contrast, Beta readers are readers. They sample a prepared manuscript and evaluate it as readers. Was it good? What did they like? What did they hate? It's up to you, the writer, to filter that feedback and decide what need to happen to that manuscript to make it better. Later this week, I'll do a post on choosing CPs, and on how to find and evaluate your Betas. But the important distinction for me is that Beta readers taste-test the finished (or close to finished product) before it goes back to the kitchen for further work. They aren't there to tell you how to fix it.

So, your CP is the cook in the kitchen with you, who will listen when you yell that your Beta's clearly don't know that your MC is supposed to be an unlikable jerk in chapter one. They will commiserate. And then they'll help you figure out a way to make that unlikable jerk a vulnerable, understandable jerk who is ripe for change. They work with you on your vision to make it better.

Do you need one or the other? Well, you need both. Tomorrow's post will be about how I find and choose CP's, and then I'll talk about Beta readers.

https://rebeccafryar.com/blog/

Grim Dreamer

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2019, 02:53:31 PM »
WIM Week 4: Second CP Round

Part 2: Choosing CPs.

Now that I've talked about the difference between CPs and Beta readers, I thought I'd talk about how I look for CPs, how many CPs I'd like to have, and where and when I like to have my CPs help with manuscript development.

The very first thing I consider is myself and my needs. That sounds very selfish, doesn't it? It is. I've discovered over the many years of my life that I'm a very independent person. That's not the greatest quality to have when it comes to receiving and processing feedback, but it is who I am, I'm a bit old to expect my personality to change that much.

I handle criticism best when I fully trust the individual giving it, when I love their writing and their style, when they have the ability to see through what I wrote to what I meant, and when they suggests a change that they can brainstorm with me, and when I can argue the changes that are the most difficult. These changes are ones that I can see happening, but I sometimes struggle to visualize how I will make it without unraveling the whole story to do it. I know I'm not the easiest person to work with, and so I try to choose my CPs carefully.

I've found CPs from contests, from forums, from writing groups. They can come from anywhere, but once I've found these writers, it's time to test out whether or not we might be a good fit long-term.

First of all, they are writers who write and read in my genre. Ideally, they have a number of finished manuscripts in that genre, and are busy writing more. They don't have to be fast writers, but I am looking for dedication. Once I've decided to see if a writer is a possible CP, I will usually offer to Beta read something for them. This gives them a chance to see how I evaluate their work, and it gives me a chance to see their story craft, prose, grammar, weaknesses, and strengths as a writer. I want to be on close to equal footing in terms of writing ability, but I also want to be of use to that writer.

Ideally, after deciding that their style of writing is something I like, and want to work with, I may ask if they want to try to CP something for me, and I will CP something for them. I like to start with a chapter, or better yet, a short story. See if their feedback is actionable and understandable. Sometimes, I will even ask for specific feedback on one or more areas, to see if they are adept at brainstorming, thinking through a problem, and coming up with possible solutions. I will challenge some of their comments, and see how they handle that. Can they think through my responses, incorporate them, and see my side of the argument? Ideally, they'd do all this to me, too. I like give and take.

If that all works out well, try with a longer piece of work.

My personality plays a role in the decision too. I've got a temperamental side. I can be hard to get along with. I'm not all that great at recognizing when I'm getting on my CP's very last nerve. I don't pick up subtle hints. My CPs know this about me. And for some amazing reason, they don't hate me! At least not entirely. And for that alone, they are rare, special, precious unicorns! When they need me to read, I clear my desk for them as fast as I can. They put up with me, and for that alone, I am incredibly grateful!

So, how many CPs should a writer have? I have no idea. I want four. I have two.

I'd like to have a few more for a couple of reasons.

First, CPs are writers. They have their own stories to write. I don't need a lot of handholding, but I do need a reasonably rapid return on manuscripts. If one CP is tied up in revisions, and another is mired in a particularly tough second draft, it would be nice to have a few other CPs to turn to.

Secondly, I have come to realize (the hard way) that if I use the same CP for the same manuscript more than twice, their feedback becomes less useful. They get too close to my work. When they become too familiar with the world, the characters, and the magic, they get cut-happy. Since I do the same thing, I blithely hack through my manuscript, slicing out things that are actually important to readers who aren't as immersed in character and world, especially in the critical opening chapters.
 
If I must have a CP work through something with me twice, I really need to give them a minimum of six months between work, and ideally, another manuscript from a completely different world with all new characters. Because I revise hard and fast, sometimes I need feedback before that CP has had time to regain objective distance. So, having multiple sets of eyes can be a good thing.

Thirdly, I love having CP's with specialties. We can't all be great at every aspect of writing. I have my strengths, and so I like to have CPs with different strengths from mine so I can choose who I need and at what time in a manuscript's development. Ideally, I like CP's in early development (2nd or 3rd draft) and after Beta readers (5th  or 6th draft).

However, once you have multiple CPs, you'll find you have a new problem to sort out: conflicting feedback. You'll seldom get anyone more opinionated on how you should write than your own CPs! Why? Because they love your story. They love your words. They want what is best for it. But sometimes, what is "best" is probably not going to make all your CPs happy. And that's okay. Advice is subjective.

However, you have an option with trusted CPs that you don't have with Beta readers. You can ask your CP why they made that recommendation. You can tell them that their feedback is in conflict with another CP. You can discuss your vision with them. You can brainstorm ways to bring out that vision. It's not a my-way-or-the-highway relationship. Just be nice about it, and invite them to do the same with your feedback! The goal is to make the story better, and that can take some tinkering, arguing, problem solving, rewriting, and reassessment. That's what CPs are there for!

So that's CPs. Tomorrow, Beta Readers.

https://rebeccafryar.com/blog/
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 02:55:21 PM by Grim Dreamer »

Grim Dreamer

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2019, 07:32:43 PM »
WIM Week 4

Part 3: Beta Readers

Late today with this post! FYI--never try to stack four cakes with a lemon filling layer unless you are prepared to bring a level and a knife to the job! Cakeslides like you wouldn't believe. But while the messy cake is messily devoured, here's a post on those valuable taste-testers in the writer's kitchen: Beta readers.

Beta readers don't have to be writers. Technically, it would be better if none of them were writers. But let's face it. Writers are readers, or we should be. And many writers don't have the luxury of haunting the local bookstore for regulars who buy their genre, and then bribing them with cookies to read a story.

From my perspective, I don't mind if my readers are writers, editors, or don't write at all. They are all readers, and that's the operative word here. Don't give your Beta readers something that isn't finished, that you just want a quick opinion on, or that you plan to rewrite but you thought you'd see what readers had to say before you trash the whole thing and start over. You might actually want them to read your new version, right? So, send them a story that is as good as you can make it, and if you have a CP to help you with that, so much the better. Send to Betas when you feel you think you've achieved your vision for your story. You haven't, but you should feel you have! When you get the feedback, you will discover how much you missed your mark, and then it's time for more self-edits, consultations with your CPs, and probably another few rounds of revision.
My criteria for Beta readers is less rigorous than that for CPs.

1)   They have to want to read the story. If someone doesn't really want to read, or can't read past the opening chapter, that's good to know, but it won't really help you find out if your whole book works. Time to read is also important. Don't tell a Beta they have two weeks to read your book. Give them time. If they say they don't have time, they don't have time.

2)   They have to like the genre. I can't stress this enough. You may even have to look at subgenre. A person who loves urban fantasy may very well say they love fantasy and put your own battle axe through your chest if you foist your 120,000-word secondary world epic on them. I'm not saying that a person who writes and/or reads outside of your genre can't be a good Beta reader, but I've found that it helps to know that in advance. A romance expert may very well help you in with your romance arc in your fantasy novel, but you'll know that if they say they hate your magic system, that may not be feedback you can really use.

3)   They have to tell me which parts they liked and didn't like. If they tell me why, I'll love them forever. If they start telling me how to fix it, that's fine. But I am unlikely to take their fix unless it's just really, really spot on. In which case, I might be asking to Beta read for them and start thinking about whether or not that writer--and it's usually writing Beta readers who can't help themselves and start trying to fix things--might be a potential CP.
That's about it.
 
Filtering Beta feedback is similar to what I did for the general critique round. Rule of three. If three people don't like something, and I know they aren't genre haters, it's probably an issue. I mark it, and if it's a vision thing (aka--I hate your unlikable MC, and they are supposed to be unlikable) consult with my CP. Don't consult with a Beta about this, and don't argue with them. It's their opinion. Thank them, and if you have a problem with the feedback, talk to your CP about it. It may be too subjective for you to use, or they may have a point that your CP can find and work out with you.

After threes, look at where there is agreement by two Beta readers. If I agree, I will put this in the fix or repair column. Again, filter through vision. If I have two people hate something, and that was my intention, excellent! Particularly helpful to me are these emotional reactions because I view that as my own personal area of weakness. When someone reacts in a strong way to something I wrote, positive or negative, I'm evoking emotion! I did something right! Gold star for me.

Everything else I consider on a case by case basis. If it's something that bothered me, and one reader picked up on that area too, I would be working on it anyway. If one reader piles on in an area that no one else has trouble with, I'll probably discard that feedback. It's not that their opinion isn't valid. I just find it too subjective to be generally useful.

After Beta reading, and after I look through places that I want to fix, I usually work through the story on my own one more time. I might get a CP involved, especially if it's a place where I have a vision in mind, and want to be sure I have articulated that vision accurately. And after I've revised to the best of my ability, I may ask the CP to read and work with me before yet another revision.

https://rebeccafryar.com/blog/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 07:34:22 PM by Grim Dreamer »

Grim Dreamer

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2019, 03:36:51 PM »
WIM Week 4: Second CP Round

Part 4: It's Never The End

Waiting to Jump

By R. Lee Fryar

Kenny was waiting for Batlady to jump. When she did, he would too, but he never thought it would happen. Until today.

Kenneth Oden. Fired.

His morning coffee chilled in his stomach. He'd recommended layoffs in the interest of verisimilitude, but he didn't expect this. He thought it was a mistake at first, but the only mistake was HR's, copying him on the email. First time he'd ever been glad for the ineptitude of a department that smelled like cheese puffs and body odor. They'd given him time to decide. In minutes, he and his life-in-a-box would be out of the building. He fingered the thumb drive in his pocket. He should have given the damned thing to the Feds last week when they'd invited him to squeal.

He glanced around the cramped office at his fellow shit-shovelers, but they were busy with their own piles. On the walls, the motivational posters mocked him. To the west, a mountaineer dangling from Everest reminded him he couldn't do it. To the east, a peloton of bikers threatened to run him over if he tried. To the north, Batlady watched him with the eyes of a woman who understood his position. Facing her future, she gazed out across an abyss, torch in hand, frozen in the kind of despairing truth that leaves no room for emotions. Kenny hadn't taken the Feds offer, and not because he didn't have the guts.

Like her lone painting on the wall, he was an oddity. Integrity was in short supply in Regen Corp.'s accounting division, and he was soiled in as much shit as upper management, but he had his pride. He wouldn't compound fraud with disloyalty.

His resolve hardened. He'd come back by night to do it. No one else needed to know. Not like he was saving lives after all. He had always been able to make auditors believe anything he said. With a little finesse he could work the same sleight-of-mind on anyone, including the flustered, red-faced junior accountant working his way across the room right now.

Kenny accompanied his former employee to the door, accepted his condolences, and then calmly swiped the man's keycard.


Kenny returned by the dingy light of the streetlamps to fire himself. He told the security guard the cardboard box was for a few things he'd left behind. The man believed him. People always did. In the box, Kenny carried a tightly sealed gas can.

Ascending by elevator to the ninth floor, images of his childhood raced through his mind--cold days on the farm helping his father with the sheep, warm days digging the garden with his mother. Hard works, but it was an honest living. Shame burned his cheeks.

Batlady cut her eyes at him when he walked in. Sometimes Kenny thought whoever painted the petite woman in the batwing cape had actually imprisoned her soul. Kenny had once asked a fellow manager what the painting was worth. It was painted by an accountant, the man said, a former company controller. What did he think? Kenny knew better than to say what he thought. It was the only authentic thing in the place. He loved truth when he saw it, even pinned like a dead butterfly to a card.

He sat at his desk and opened the gas can. The fumes escaped with a desperate gasp. Only one person in the world would witness his redemption and understand it.

He raised his unlit match like a torch. "Well, lady?"

She jumped. Her cape became tattered wings, her feet trailed blood like streamers. He couldn't hear her scream. The glass stopped the noise. But her face broke with fear, poise shattered forever by the kind of desperation that drives a person off the ledge of their life. She tumbled end over end in an eternity of blue. No bottom. No sudden stop to end it all.

Kenny couldn't bear it. He raced across the room, tore the picture off the wall, and smashed the glass on the nearest desk.
"Grab on, I'll catch you!" He thrust his arms into the picture.

She hurtled past him, flailing, shrieking his name. He thought he'd lost her. Then she tumbled past again, top of the frame to the bottom. A sudden weight on the end of his wrists jerked him forward. Her shriek became a terrified whimper.

"Don't let go," she said in a tight voice. "Kenny, please."

"Can you climb?"

"If you help me."

Pulling upward, he dragged her to the edge of the frame. She cried when her bleeding feet raked over the broken shards of her prison.

"I didn't know," he said, staring down at her feet in horror. She had been nailed to her perch, just as the numbers had nailed him to lies he felt he must uphold. "I would have jumped sooner.

She stared up at him, weary, windblown, almost as jaded as he. "I was waiting for you," she said.


They left the building together. Kenny carried the gas can in one hand. Batlady held the other, leaning against him for support. His shoes were too big for her, but she limped bravely, a faint smile painted on her face. No one stopped them. The cloak had disguised her for years, first in the boardroom, and then in the accounting department. It had always been big enough for them both. In the folds of it, she carried Kenny's thumb drive. He'd entrusted it to her. As for the rest, she knew it all. SEC undercover work was a bitch, but she'd been a controller at the company before they fired her. Regen Corp. was doomed from the moment Kenny came to work for them. She loved integrity when she saw it, even trapped under filthy lies.

They live together on a farm in Oregon now. Kenny grows organic vegetables and raises sheep. He'll never lie for his living again. Batlady cards wool, spins thread, and weaves batwing capes for those who would change their look, and possibly their lives. Kenny still calls her Batlady. She says he can call her whatever he wants. He saved her.

But Kenny knows the truth. She saved him.


Notes:

Well, now. That's not a bad first draft. I think I have the whole story there, some backstory for the characters, motivation for both characters pulled out and baldly stated, and there's even some decent lines in it. But it's still a first draft in my mind.

Everything, up to this point, is negotiable, and will be on the chopping block once a story is done and goes off to agent or editor. This hasn't been an easy lesson for me to learn, but whatever amount work I may have done to a story means nothing in terms of whether the story is ready. It's polished. It's written to the best of my current ability. But it is far, far, far from the final product.

That's why it's so important to know your process, love your process, and find your own way to write that allows you to write your best work in a way that gives you joy, embraces your creativity, and allows you to have fun. You'll be doing it over, and over, and over, and over again! If you don't love it, or at least love parts of it, it gets very rough. Burnout is real.

So find your best way, tweak it until you know exactly what works for you and what doesn't. Try a few new things, even when they don't work for you, simply to be familiar with them. I don't use beat sheets, outlines, and story maps, but I know what they are. If I must "turn them in" with a story for someone else who needs them, I can create them. Not happily, but it can be done. Remember what your math teacher used to say? Show your work? Sometimes a pantser has to show their work, too.

It's also important to understand your personality, and not only to find what feedback helps and how to process it. You need to understand you and what motivates you. Find what recharges you when you are writing, and how much time it takes you to write from your first draft to your polished first draft, and work on streamlining that. Bottom line, find how you work hardest and happiest, and get good at it.

You'll be doing it a lot!

Time spend on processing critiques, brainstorming feedback--30 min

Time rewriting, revising--90 minutes

Reading for flow, once to myself, once to my writing group--30 minutes

Total 150 minutes

https://rebeccafryar.com/blog/
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 03:38:22 PM by Grim Dreamer »

Fabierien

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 09:23:20 PM »
This is much clearer than the 1st week story. I love the story and the surreal nature of it. I can't wait to see if you develop this further.

Thuy

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2019, 04:55:00 AM »
Beautiful!!! So many stunning lines in here that I love. One of my favorites: He loved truth when he saw it, even pinned like a dead butterfly to a card. And her retort: She loved integrity when she saw it, even trapped under filthy lies.

Also, I thoroughly enjoyed your informative process posts. Your distinction between CPs (kitchen cooks) and beta readers (taste testers) makes perfect sense!

Grim Dreamer

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Re: Waiting to Jump: CPs, Round 2
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 02:50:42 PM »
Thanks!